After reading about the prostitution laws in California, I was wondering: If one does not negotiate "an exchange for money or other consideration" before a sex act is committed, then, could they still charge the person with solicitation or patronizing of a prostitute?
Here is some information:
Patronizing a prostitute in the second degree
Engaging in an act of prostitution
In order to convict you of engaging in an act of prostitution, the prosecutor must prove that you:
1.engaged in an act of prostitution, and
2.that you did so willfully.
“Prostitution” means engaging in sexual intercourse or any lewd act with another person in exchange for money or other consideration.
“Willfully” means deliberately or on purpose. It does not require an intent to break the law.12
It does not matter if you pay up front or afterward or even if you speak about money upfront.
If you pay for the service, it qualifies for the charge.
No contact with the genital areas is allowed by any massage therapist, in any setting in any state in the US. If they do it and are caught they will probably get a charge, you on the other hand may say, you did not ask her to touch you there. That may work for getting you out of a charge, but if you didn't stop her, well, I wouldn't be optimistic.
There are all manor of 'tricks' providers try to use to prevent meeting the standard for that charge. Like saying the money exchanged is for time only, and anything that happens is between two consenting adults. I have never heard of that ever working.
Nor I have I ever heard a spa that was busted beat any charges because they did not request the tip upfront.
some states it is not that easy
in many states now massage parlors are not allowed zoning will not approve it. sure you can find someone to rent to you open and get closwed within 3 weeks.
you need to be a full salon and have a manager operator present at all time .. ( 2-4 year experience needed as an operator) in order to do massage in the same space geez why to they make things so hard..
Forum Post: 1010
Registered: Sep 2008
Any as in A N Y sexual activity at an AMP between you and a lady when a raid happens and you're going down. Period.
The creative, hair-splitting arguments like this one that defendants try don't even make it past their own criminal defense attorneys to try on a judge/jury because they're non-starters.
They may make some logical sense from a lay perspective, but practicing law without a license is strongly discouraged for a reason, Dude. Seriously, legal research is labor intensive and the facts of each case are unique and require careful review by a seasoned criminal defense attorney.
I like that you're reading and becoming familiar with the elements of the crime. The more sophisticated and educated, the better able to anticipate and avoid trouble, right? Even the link you included above makes it quickly evident that these are highly technical areas of the law. Understanding published appellate court decisions is the fodder over which courtroom battles are waged. People pitch arguments in court all the time thinking that because their own viewpoint makes some logical sense to them that it'll carry the day. Don't be that guy.
Negotiating is something that the preferred AMP ladies don't even do at all and your red flags should be triggered and your Spidey-sense go into full-alert mode if it's an AMP you've not been to before or a lady you're seeing for the first time.
Undercover sting op's at AMPs more typically do not have the lady actually being a UC vice officer though, you probably know, they're far more classically a male pretend-client who is a UC vice officer.
You can get caught in a variety of ways, but again, the bottom line is if you and the lady have any sort of sexual activity at all and there's evidence of it in that it's observed or admitted to, then the timing on the payment/negotiation and whether there's any negotiation is going to be irrelevant because you were there and paid for sex.
So? That's the reason for this awesome site EMP where we do research and learn how to be careful, right!? EMP ROCKS!
This message is edited by Time on Jul 31st 2011 09:21 for reason: Disclaimer: This sure as hell ain't legal advice, it's just a strong encouragement to use caution and read and learn. :-)
Well again, lets remember, that when a spa is busted and if the provider and the client are charged, 99% of the time the charge against the provider is the only one going to be persued by the DA.
Execptions as follows:
She admits you paid her for sex of any kind to LE, you're screwed not the good way.
You are caught in the act by LE.
You admit you paid her, or were going to pay her for a sex act.
You finished the act but the evidence is still there when LE enters (ie used condom, with your dna in it).
Otherwise, any ladies charged are going to be against what they offered UC previously, or what they admitted to during the LE 'investigation'.
What will most likely happen to the clients are you will be arrested, booked, and charged, with solicitiing or visiting a bawdy place, or some such nuisance charge that will later be dropped (especially if you get a lawyer). They will likely post it in the newspaper. For the embarrassment factor.
This will be enough if you are married or have a job that is sensitive to the publicity.
Out of all the ones listed in the paper around here, If you look them up later you will find they never made it to court. Simply because LE didn't catch them in the act, and no evidence was found, and no one confessed, so there really was no case.
If you get busted in a spa, it will suck in everyway possible and may damage your private life, but it highly unlikely you will get jail, probation or even a fine out of it.
This message is edited by TheROCK on Jul 31st 2011 19:18 for reason: ....
Thankfully it is not a crime to have a hard-on! Providers are more afraid of you than you should be of LE. If they proceed, then game on! There is a reason why AMP's always have a reception area with a locked door, right? Alot of FS places even have security cameras as a warning. Just "ring bell for service."
I appreciate all of your replies. So let me try and answer some of your comments.
The Rock said:
“It does not matter if you pay up front or afterward or even if you speak about money upfront.
If you pay for the service, it qualifies for the charge.”
I agree. I’m talking about not negotiating, and just giving a “tip” afterwards.
“If they do it and are caught they will probably get a charge, you on the other hand may say, you did not ask her to touch you there. That may work for getting you out of a charge, but if you didn't stop her, well, I wouldn't be optimistic.”
Yeah, I wouldn’t be optimistic either; but then again, who’s gonna stop her?
“I think it's interesting that in NY (or maybe it's more local), when the AMP gets busted, what I read in the news is that practicing massage without a license is a felony and prostitution is a misdemeanor.”
Yes, this is interesting; and it may shows a male bias. Thanks for your comments.
“. . . geez why to they make things so hard..”
Who do you mean by “they”? j/k
Actually, I'm not sure how hard it is in California, because there are a lot of places opening up. Thanks.
“They may make some logical sense from a lay perspective, but practicing law without a license is strongly discouraged for a reason, Dude. Seriously, legal research is labor intensive and the facts of each case are unique and require careful review by a seasoned criminal defense attorney."
Dude, it’s just a discussion; I’m not talking about practicing law.
“The more sophisticated and educated, the better able to anticipate and avoid trouble, right?”
“That's the reason for this awesome site EMP where we do research and learn how to be careful, right!?”
What research have you guys done?
“The law is whatever the judge says the law is.”
Even though they're supposed to be fair, I agree.
“Or the jury.
Yes, and if you decide to go to a jury and you lose, the punishment may be worse than if you had taken a plea.
The Rock said:
“Well again, lets remember, that when a spa is busted and if the provider and the client are charged, 99% of the time the charge against the provider is the only one going to be persued by the DA.”
Yes, ain’t that the truth. So, we’re kind of lucky in some ways. It’s a drag on the girls though; especially when they’re only trying to make a living, and most of the girls are very nice girls, having children that they’re trying to support.
“There is a reason why AMP's always have a reception area with a locked door, right?
Yep, and I feel better when there is a locked door.
omagoa....on average most of us that post regularly have been participating in this hobby for several years without any sort of legal issues. I know "the law is the law" but like most things, once you get a feel for it, you just know "the feel." If you don't know the "feel," then my only advise is to go with your "feelings." If something just doesn't "feel right" then hopefully enjoy a decent massage and move on. If you do your research, then the "feeling" becomes a lot easier because you at least have half a sense of what to expect. Alot of us started this hobby well before consulting the internet and had to do our research "hands-on" so to speak, so look at the number of reviews and number of forum postings in what you read on THIS site and keep in mind that most of these people have been doing this for several years and are still doing it with no issue. Most of what you need to know to have an experience that you expect is right here, so do your research and make your own conscience decisions.